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    Adhesives

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    inf0rm3r
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    Adhesives

    Post  inf0rm3r on Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:31 am

    For those who got samples, how did you adhere the Silicone tip to the foam?

    I've been playing with the 2 I have and hot glue simply doesn't work with the diameter because it is so tight. It would work if we took 0.5m off the stub and added 2mm to the stub to maintain the heavy weight.

    I experimented with super glue which bonded well but had an eating affect at the foam which weakened the foam slightly.

    Has anybody got any suggestions of alternatives which are cheap but work without changing the the tip itself please mention it here.
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    mull

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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  mull on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:30 am

    What material is the blue foam made out of?
    It doesn't appear to be made out of polyethylene or polypropylene, from the way it behaves with super glue you had observed (which is also interesting).
    If so, that's a good thing, as it gives you more adhesive options, but other materials may negatively react with specific adhesives.

    From what appears on the photo that you had provided (http://oi54.tinypic.com/10efqt3.jpg), there seems to be a lack of grooves for excess or expansion of glue to move into. It will also help enhance bonding due to greater surface area for the glue to bond to, but at the cost of density.

    Ideally, you would want a glue with low viscosity so that you can apply it as thinly as possible, to minimise the overall effect of the diameter.
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    thestick

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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  thestick on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:52 am

    Maybe something like Selley's Gel grip.

    Or maybe one of these Spray Adhesives.
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    Psykka
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  Psykka on Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:19 am

    Yeah gel grip would do the trick. Hell even PVA would probably work.


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    inf0rm3r
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  inf0rm3r on Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:24 pm

    The material is EPE Foam (Expanded Polyethylene). The super glue I was using was quite harsh, initially some others I tried didn't eat the foam at all but the bond wasn't as strong.

    @stick

    How much does gel grip sell for?

    I'll check these out tomorrow and get back with results.

    @ mull, the groove idea is great but it would unfortunately kill the weight, unless I somehow counter this by adding to the stub but I can't add to much to the stub as the darts will start re-producing streamline problems.
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    Psykka
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  Psykka on Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:31 pm

    Gelgrip isn't cheap and it's very thick and stinky. If you can find a better option go with it but it would definately hold strongly.

    It's about 10-20 bucks for a tube and the tube isn't particularly big. I went through 1 and a half tubes making about 12 titan missiles.


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    inf0rm3r
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  inf0rm3r on Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:43 pm

    hmmm, next option it is then!

    Perhaps Epoxy by the bucket, not high grade stuff just rubbish stuff, that's pretty cheap.
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    thestick

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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  thestick on Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:15 pm

    You can also get a Gel Grip type glue (at least it acts and smells the same) by the tin at Clarke rubber. It's not cheap at ~$20-30 a tin, but it will last you ages with the tiny amounts you will be using. I have a tin in the shed, but I CBF going to look at it now. I'll post the name/brand tomorrow.
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    clunk07
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  clunk07 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:08 am

    If you can allow for the extended curing time, possibly "Tarzan's Grip" would be useful. It's fairly similar to Gel Grip, is rather thick, but fairly easy to work with. I used it for years to re-stick soles on footy boots, joggers etc, and it never let me down. It's fairly cheap from Bunnings/Mitre 10 as well.
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    jacko1120

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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  jacko1120 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:22 am

    clunk07 wrote:If you can allow for the extended curing time, possibly "Tarzan's Grip" would be useful. It's fairly similar to Gel Grip, is rather thick, but fairly easy to work with. I used it for years to re-stick soles on footy boots, joggers etc, and it never let me down. It's fairly cheap from Bunnings/Mitre 10 as well.

    I can also vouch for titans grip. Buy it in bulk to get em cheaper though.

    Brunius

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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  Brunius on Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:25 am

    Yeah, Tarzan's grip is the shiz. It's only $5 a tube from bunnings IIRC (which I probably don't)
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    mull

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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  mull on Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:12 am

    The real problem is that polyethylene (PE) is notoriously difficult to apply glue onto because it is very inert, and therefore hard for chemical adhesion to occur.

    There are some speciality adhesives available for bonding onto PE, but these generally work on the action of solvent welding.
    Good for solid bits of the material, where the losses are not significant, but not suitable for foam, due to its low density and high surface area (ie. it will chew through foam).

    clunk07 wrote:If you can allow for the extended curing time, possibly "Tarzan's Grip" would be useful. It's fairly similar to Gel Grip, is rather thick, but fairly easy to work with. I used it for years to re-stick soles on footy boots, joggers etc, and it never let me down.
    Footwear soles are made from a different polymer, which is most likely to be polyurethane.
    That glue is also polyurethane-based too, so they are compatible for bonding.
    However, the acetone in the glue may eat into the silicone rubber tips.
    Also, I do not recall polyurethane glues being able to bond well with PE, but this should not stop you from trying because...

    I'm starting to think:
    - Find anything that bonds really well with silicone rubber.
    - Hope that the foam can soak up the glue like a sponge (lower visocity is advantageous for this; and by pressing around firmly), so that the glue jams up in the pores and textured surfaces of the foam and lock it in place when it dries, as a mechanical bond.

    Actually, I have been assuming that the glue is not sticking to the foam, rather than not sticking to the tips.
    Am I correct with this assumption?
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  clunk07 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:55 pm

    I was only using jogger soles as an example of the durability/impact resistance. I've used TG on heaps of different rubber/plastics etc. I'm not saying it will work, but anything that is cheap has to be worth a shot.

    Another option may be gasket sealant. I'm not sure how it would react with the foam, but it would be ideal for the silicone tips.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  thestick on Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:53 pm

    Here are a couple of more ideas:

    Silicon sealants, No-more-nails, you know those adhesives that come in tubes for caulking guns. They are cheap as, at only a couple of dollars a tube.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  littlebro05 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:54 pm

    thestick wrote:Here are a couple of more ideas:

    Silicon sealants, No-more-nails, you know those adhesives that come in tubes for caulking guns. They are cheap as, at only a couple of dollars a tube.

    Although those type of stuff takes 24hours to cure. We need something quick.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  clunk07 on Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:38 am

    The Ferdelance darts from BT use silicone tips - maybe SG Nerf may be able to shed some light on what glue is used to produce them. All I can tell you is it's clear... not much help though.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  taerkitty on Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:01 am

    In the US, we have something known as Shoe Goo. It sounds similar to Tarzan's Grip already mentioned. It's a very rubber-y texture when dry.

    Another possibility if you have it in your part of the world is Gorilla Glue - it's a polyurethane glue that is activated by water. It will cure to a chunk of amber when left by itself, but when it comes in contact with water and is under pressure, it wants to foam up.

    I'm thinking that a drop of that smeared around your post, and a drop of water in your foam at the opening (so it get smeared in when you insert the post) might work.

    Assuming those are available, that is.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  KingCam on Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:07 am

    taerkitty wrote:In the US, we have something known as Shoe Goo. It sounds similar to Tarzan's Grip already mentioned. It's a very rubber-y texture when dry.

    Another possibility if you have it in your part of the world is Gorilla Glue - it's a polyurethane glue that is activated by water. It will cure to a chunk of amber when left by itself, but when it comes in contact with water and is under pressure, it wants to foam up.

    I'm thinking that a drop of that smeared around your post, and a drop of water in your foam at the opening (so it get smeared in when you insert the post) might work.

    Assuming those are available, that is.

    We can get Gorilla Glue in Australia it made by Selleys under the name of Durbond.

    Here a Link I found for Gorilla Glue.

    http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3150
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  mull on Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:57 am

    taerkitty wrote:Another possibility if you have it in your part of the world is Gorilla Glue - it's a polyurethane glue that is activated by water. It will cure to a chunk of amber when left by itself, but when it comes in contact with water and is under pressure, it wants to foam up.
    That's why I didn't want to suggest polyurethane-based adhesives because they can expand, which is somewhat undesirable, as there is very little tolerance between the diameters of the foam darts and the barrel for optimum performance.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  taerkitty on Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:07 am

    I'm doing something similar right now, but lacking tubular foam I've had to melt holes in my FBR with a soldering iron. Instead of silicone heads, I've cast my own out of hot glue, and I've had good results with PU glue. The trick is to use far less glue than you think you need.

    Or, failing that, the trick is try to ruin as few foam blanks as possible while learning the right amount?
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    Dietzie

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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  Dietzie on Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:26 am

    I have been using sikaflex-227 for CDTDs and putting tips back on darts after my daughter pulls them off. Its reasonably quick dry time and bond strength wise - Im using the leftovers of the tube I used to fit the windscreen to my 4Runner..


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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  lefty on Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:19 pm

    Why can't silicon be used?
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  taerkitty on Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:32 pm

    lefty wrote:Why can't silicon be used?
    Silicone sealant and adhesive (comes in a small toothpaste-like tube here in the US) can be used, but it doesn't form a very good bond with non-porous surfaces. And, once it starts peeling, it peels very easily. Also, because it's a sealant, it seems to leave behind a sheen of silicone after it separates, making other adhesives less effective.

    Note: this was my experience attempting to use silicone cement on washer heads. It may be fine if you're using erasers or other weights, and your FBR is being glued directly to your front padding.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  inf0rm3r on Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:12 am

    I tried a couple of the ideas mentioned here, nothing bonded, I turned to my supplier who's said glue 502 (Straight Super Glue) will work. I thought this was a bit weird but I looked at the super glue I was using it wasn't actually super glue. I've simply gone out and bought the most el cheapo super glue I can find and the bond is perfect, so we still have a cheap glue!

    There was no negative effect on the foam either which is fantastic.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  taerkitty on Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:15 pm

    So straight cyanoacrylic (Super Glue) is the best answer? I'm asking because Glue502 isn't readily available here in the United States, and we're talking about a MO of these.
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    Re: Adhesives

    Post  inf0rm3r on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:11 am

    Yep, I've tested on cheap generic $2.00 packs of super glue from the cheap stores. They bond incredibly well. This is a good thing because out of a single packet you could easily do 200 darts.

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