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    How powerful is your blaster?

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    makeitgo

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    How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  makeitgo on Sat May 21, 2011 11:12 pm

    ** Corrections thanks to NerfDevil
    *** More corrections thanks to Darth Maker

    Have any of you ever wondered how fast our blasters shoot? I have.

    I've done a few calculations and here's what I've come up with. For arguments sake, I'm going to express my values in feet because we all tend to range test in feet. ie. "I get 90' flat."

    First the variables and constants:

    Gravity is a constant at 32.17 ft/s/s

    On average, our blasters (primaries) get 90'

    On average, I'd say most people fire level with their blasters at 5' from the ground.

    (I will negate wind sheer and friction due to air.)

    Using gravity, a, and the height at which we fire from, d, we can calculate how long it takes for our darts to hit the ground once fired.

    **
    d = vt + (1/2)at^2

    d = 5' the distance from the barrel to the ground (assumed held parallel to the ground)
    v = 0 as there is no vertical speed at the beginning
    a = 32.2'/s^2
    t = ? this is what we need to solve first; the time it takes for the dart to hit the ground

    Therefore:

    5 = (0)t + (1/2)(32.2'/s^2)t^2
    5 = (1/2)(32.2'/s^2)t^2
    5/(1/2) = (32.2'/s^2)t^2
    10 = (32.2'/s^2)t^2
    10/(32.2'/s^2) = t^2
    5/(16.1'/s^2)=t^2
    0.31s^2=t^2
    ***0.557=t

    It takes ~0.56 seconds for the dart to hit the ground once it has been fired level from 5 feet off the ground.

    Since we know the average distance covered during that time is 90 feet, we can calculate the average velocity of our darts.

    90 feet/0.56 seconds = 160.71 ft/s

    Therefore, our blasters fire stefans at an average velocity of 160.71 FEET PER SECOND!!!

    Remember, these are average velocities from being fired, to landing. Your darts actually start to decelerate as soon as they leave the barrel. It's travelling at a much lower velocity by the time it hits the ground.

    Here are some other calculations for other average distances:

    If your blaster hits:

    60' flat, it fires at 107.14 ft/s (pistols, NF, Scouts etc.)

    80' flat, it fires at 142.86 ft/s (average)

    100' flat, it fires at 178.57 ft/s (average)

    110' flat, it fires at 196.43 ft/s (slightly above average)

    120' flat, it fires at 214.29 ft/s (4B... Dumpster! LOL!)

    130' flat, it fires at 232.14 ft/s (Doomsayer?)

    140' flat, it fires at 250.00 ft/s (banned)

    150' flat, it fires at 267.86 ft/s (banned)

    160' flat, it fires at 285.71 ft/s (Singled and plugged 4B, banned)

    170' flat, it fires at 303.57 ft/s (Singled Titan, banned)

    180' flat, it fires at 321.43 ft/s (banned)

    190' flat, it fires at 339.23 ft/s (banned)

    200' flat, it fires at 357.14 ft/s!!! (Converted and singled Super Soakers, singled and plugged Titan. Obviously Banned)

    To give some perspective, the average paintball speeds are 300 ft/s (capped at that speed for safety reasons). Airsoft 400 ft/s (capped for safety reasons).
    Real guns 2500 ft/s - 4000ft/s (not capped because they are dumb).

    Keep in mind that mass and density of the ammunition is key to how much energy will be expended on impact. A foam dart has considerably less mass then a paintball.

    I hope this was informative to any of you who decided to read this.

    Cheers!!!

    **Thanks again, NerfDevil for the corrections.
    ***Thanks Darth maker for the minor correction that made these velocities a lot more reasonable.


    Last edited by makeitgo on Sun May 22, 2011 9:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Xoenz
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  Xoenz on Sun May 22, 2011 1:08 am

    Lol nice work there.

    So for 100ft shooting guns, volicity would be 77.36 m/s
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    clunk07
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  clunk07 on Sun May 22, 2011 3:45 am

    To add another example - my 80lb draw compound bow only hits 350 fps.

    Slightly better penetration that a stinger, though!! haha

    Nice work MIG.
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    TheBradl3s
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  TheBradl3s on Sun May 22, 2011 5:17 am

    Hmmm... This is both good AND bad for us in Aus. People will know what I mean (hopefully).

    Anyway, good one MIG, this will allow us to have a decent idea of exactly how powerful our blasters are!

    So that means my 4b is capable of 500fps, when I use heavies (WHICH I DON'T ANY MORE FORE OBVIOUS REASONS!!!!!!!).
    MAMMAMIA!!
    That's maybe... a bit too powerful? but hey, good for dick waving.

    lol

    - Brad
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    Psykka
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  Psykka on Sun May 22, 2011 5:06 pm

    4b singled and plugged hits one hell of a lot more then 160ft.

    Interesting that singled plugged 4b and titans are banned in Canada. We use them frequently here in Melbourne.


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    boosted6

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  boosted6 on Mon May 30, 2011 2:25 am

    Yeah i used my titan a couple of times, its un-plugged, but i got 250ft from sitting on the ground and just angled it up abit.

    Hey MIG, i got 148ft yesterday from the octo, so good fps for me! But that was angled.

    Was good reading that, thanks mate.
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    Mozart

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  Mozart on Mon May 30, 2011 7:02 am

    I seem to be the only person who's noticed this, so I'm probably wrong, but a dart doesn't take just over half a second to hit the ground, being fired that far, does it?
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    TheTrueMcMuffin

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  TheTrueMcMuffin on Mon May 30, 2011 7:18 am

    Mozart wrote:I seem to be the only person who's noticed this, so I'm probably wrong, but a dart doesn't take just over half a second to hit the ground, being fired that far, does it?
    These calcs here assume we're in a perfect world, where gravity is precisely 9.8m/s squared downwards, and there's no wind resistance. In fact it takes much longer for a dart to hit the ground, due to effects of some kind of aerodynamics and wind sheer.

    To be honest, finding the range and measuring the time it takes for the dart to hit the ground will give you your average horizontal velocity (Maximum average), by dividing the range by time taken.
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    makeitgo

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  makeitgo on Mon May 30, 2011 7:41 am

    Mozart wrote:I seem to be the only person who's noticed this, so I'm probably wrong, but a dart doesn't take just over half a second to hit the ground, being fired that far, does it?

    It actually doesn't matter how far a dart travels as long as it's not spinning (rifling). If 2 darts were fired by 2 different powered blasters at exactly the same height from the ground, 100% level, they would land at exactly the same time. If you fired a dart (100% level) and just dropped a dart from exactly the same height, they too, would also land at exactly the same time.

    It's been my experience that nobody fires 100% flat. I always see the dart rise above the level of the barrel. If the dart does this, it was not fired truly flat. Unintentional or not, if there is rise, then it is not flat.

    You're question is akin to asking which will land first if dropped from the same height, a 10kg weight or a 100kg weight?



    [quote="TheTrueMcMuffin"]
    Mozart wrote:

    To be honest, finding the range and measuring the time it takes for the dart to hit the ground will give you your average horizontal velocity (Maximum average), by dividing the range by time taken.

    I beleive that is what I calculated above, v = d/t.
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    TheTrueMcMuffin

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  TheTrueMcMuffin on Mon May 30, 2011 7:47 am

    But, I'm talking about finding time independent of any equation, in an attempt to eliminate the uncertainty created by wind sheer, etc., in the equations, by measuring the time taken per dart.
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    littlebro05
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  littlebro05 on Mon May 30, 2011 7:49 am

    A GHETTO way you can do this is get a camera.

    Have a target from 5metres. (set distance)

    Place your Nerf Blaster in a set position so it doesn't move or anything.

    Film from the POINT the blast is SHOT and when it hits the target.

    Time how long it takes for the dart to reach the target. Let's say 0.5seconds

    Therefore V = D/T

    D = 5 metres OR 15feet (roughly)
    T = 0.5seconds
    V = ?

    V = 5metres (or 15feet) / 0.5seconds
    V = 10m/s or 30FPS.... sounds about right for a stock blaster LOL.

    You will probably need sound editing software with milliseconds to do this test properly though.
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    boosted6

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  boosted6 on Mon May 30, 2011 7:51 am

    All i can say is, mine is about to become more powerful.

    Just had a spring srrive in the mail.

    Will it take a....MAN, to prime this beast?
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  clunk07 on Mon May 30, 2011 10:34 am

    boosted6 wrote:All i can say is, mine is about to become more powerful.

    Just had a spring srrive in the mail.

    Will it take a....MAN, to prime this beast?

    Don't talk to me about MAN springs!! haha

    Just completely destroyed my LS boltsled (admittedly, it was an old one that I didn't use alu brackets on, just coathanger, and epoxy putty).

    Oxy spring + BTV2 spring + stock LS spring. Managed one shot, and had to prime it like a crossbow. I have no idea of range, as I gave up looking for the dart after 15 minutes...

    thanks oxy.... haha
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    boosted6

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  boosted6 on Mon May 30, 2011 10:53 am

    Haha, damn. Sounds good clunk.

    Well i just broke my catch bolt thingy on the octoshot. Damn that spring is crazy. Building another one.
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    Mozart

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  Mozart on Mon May 30, 2011 10:58 am

    Ohh, Clunk, you're a mad man. I'm a tad surprised the blaster didn't explode in your arms.

    MIG, thanks man, that helped me understand a bit.. But still, I'd say it takes more like a second for a dart to fall to the ground from 5'. Surely there are some sort of physics helping the dart stay in the air, just a fraction longer, when fired at such speeds? Like a golf ball, sort of.

    Also, I watched your Octo-Shot videos the other day, very nice man, i love how they're put together. Very well done!
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    littlebro05
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  littlebro05 on Mon May 30, 2011 11:02 am

    I just got the man-spring to lefty btw, he's going to put it in his RSCB triple shot and see how it goes :D. Reinforced everything he has,
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    jacko1120

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  jacko1120 on Mon May 30, 2011 11:10 am

    makeitgo wrote:
    Mozart wrote:I seem to be the only person who's noticed this, so I'm probably wrong, but a dart doesn't take just over half a second to hit the ground, being fired that far, does it?

    It actually doesn't matter how far a dart travels as long as it's not spinning (rifling). If 2 darts were fired by 2 different powered blasters at exactly the same height from the ground, 100% level, they would land at exactly the same time. If you fired a dart (100% level) and just dropped a dart from exactly the same height, they too, would also land at exactly the same time.

    It's been my experience that nobody fires 100% flat. I always see the dart rise above the level of the barrel. If the dart does this, it was not fired truly flat. Unintentional or not, if there is rise, then it is not flat.

    You're question is akin to asking which will land first if dropped from the same height, a 10kg weight or a 100kg weight?


    If you dropped a dart from the same height that you fired a dart, the dropper one would hit the ground first every single time.
    You can very well say that you are ignoring wind shear and friction for the purpose of a calculation but when you make a statement such as the one above that is just <Censored> up...

    Also, those are very average feet per second calculations. They would more likely be the max FPS for a springer rather than the average.
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    makeitgo

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  makeitgo on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:09 am

    jacko1120 wrote:

    If you dropped a dart from the same height that you fired a dart, the dropper one would hit the ground first every single time.
    You can very well say that you are ignoring wind shear and friction for the purpose of a calculation but when you make a statement such as the one above that is just <Censored> up...

    Also, those are very average feet per second calculations. They would more likely be the max FPS for a springer rather than the average.

    I take it you didn't do too well in physics class. You must be smarter than Newton, Kepler and Einstein. You should write a thesis and prove them wrong. Show the world how smart you are.

    The average velocity is the total distance over the total time. v = d/t

    Look up "Classical Mechanics/Newtonian Mechanics"!
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    CaptainSurprise

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  CaptainSurprise on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:06 am

    Actually MiG, SPEED = D/T.
    Velocity is how fast something is going, and what direction it's going in.
    Speed is just how fast something is going.

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    mister_elliott

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  mister_elliott on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:14 am

    Dart velocity isn't anywhere near constant from firing to destination. I would imagine that darts from a high performance springer or average air blaster would lose about 40-60% of their energy before hitting turf. Muzzle energies of air blasters can actually be scary, and enough to draw blood, but getting tagged by one from 20m away isn't such a big deal.

    Not ripping on your work MIG, since all the figures are still approximately correct, just pointing out that drag is a pretty significant force in longer ranged blasters.
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  littlebro05 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:28 am

    CaptainSurprise wrote:Actually MiG, SPEED = D/T.
    Velocity is how fast something is going, and what direction it's going in.
    Speed is just how fast something is going.


    Err you know you just describe speed and velocity the same way... it's not even that big of a deal, in the end you will get the answer of m/s or fps (or whatever measurement you were doing). You just answered your own answer... Direction in the equation doesn't even really matter. Unless you want to go all technical with angles and what not, it's not really a big deal.
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    makeitgo

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  makeitgo on Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:28 am

    CaptainSurprise wrote:Actually MiG, SPEED = D/T.
    Velocity is how fast something is going, and what direction it's going in.
    Speed is just how fast something is going.


    v=d/t
    velocity equals displacement (change in position) divided by time. Not necessarily direction.

    Speed is the first derivative of distance with respect to time.
    Velocity is the first derivative of displacement with respect to time.

    If an object traveled 1m in any direction and reversed course and returned to the exact same position in 1 second, it's velocity would be 0m/s. It's speed would be 2m/s.

    I would have used the 'delta' symbol but it does not exist on a typical keyboard. Yet it is universally understood as "v=d/t" not "s=d/t".

    When you graduate from high school, you'll understand.

    mister_elliott wrote:Dart velocity isn't anywhere near constant from firing to destination. I would imagine that darts from a high performance springer or average air blaster would lose about 40-60% of their energy before hitting turf. Muzzle energies of air blasters can actually be scary, and enough to draw blood, but getting tagged by one from 20m away isn't such a big deal.

    Not ripping on your work MIG, since all the figures are still approximately correct, just pointing out that drag is a pretty significant force in longer ranged blasters.

    I keep getting this misdirected comment quite often. I could only assume it's because those few have not read the article in it's entirety but have selectively chosen to only read the results. There also seems to be some confusion with the term 'average velocity'. It's not the average of mulitple shots fired it's the overall distance(displacement) traveled in X amount of time. v=d/t.

    I am very aware that the muzzle velocity is much higher than the final velocity.

    Again, the 'average velocity' as described in this article is NOT the average of multiple shots fired or to in any way imply that the speed is constant but instead, it is the total distance(displacement) over X amount of time.

    If you go back and re-read the ENTIRE article you'll see that I've addressed all of your arguments in bold face.

    But I digress to those who understood this because they read the article in it's entirety in the first place and not just the results.

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  boosted6 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:21 am

    Yeah youve had some people quick to disagree thats for sure.

    Just off topic slightly, mine will become just a little more powerful. I pulled down Bodacious today, for i'm ready to paint it and adapt the speed loader, and found a huge air leak in my plunger head. I saw that when i screwed the plunger head on, i never gooped the screw, so it was slowly un-screwing itself. I fixed that, 100% seal in the plunger tube now, and i also forgot to increase plunger travel by lengthining the slot for the priming handles.

    I might just beat that 215ft, and should beat my 139ft flat.
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    CaptainSurprise

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  CaptainSurprise on Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:14 pm

    Oh I understand now, that's a lot more clear. Excuse me for my unrivaled stupidity. Also, you can use delta (which just signifies a change, no?) through symbols.
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    littlebro05
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  littlebro05 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:17 pm

    CaptainSurprise wrote:Oh I understand now, that's a lot more clear. Excuse me for my unrivaled stupidity. Also, you can use delta (which just signifies a change, no?) through symbols.

    Does it have to be that complicated! Simple, not all of us are physicists.
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    Mozart

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  Mozart on Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:36 pm

    Hahaha, LilB got it in one there.

    I'm not stupid, I'm pretty smart, but this thread confuses the shit out of me.
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    boosted6

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  boosted6 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:03 pm

    Has been confusing the hell out of me.
    Interesting, but confusing!

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    Ungodlyfreak

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  Ungodlyfreak on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:48 pm

    Aspiring astrophysics major here. So i know my stuff.
    Your calculations find the average speed of the dart. Also, you are assuming that the dart has an ideal flight path and that air friction is not affecting it's vertical velocity. I can see what you are getting at, though i must say that there would be a large uncertainty associated with your results.

    There is a way to very accurately calculate muzzle velocity of a blaster over a distance of 5m which you can do indoors (credit Wez of West Nerf).
    Set up a target (cardboard or something solid, the dart has to make a noise when it hits)
    prime the blaster, and position it so that the DART, not the barrel, is 5m from the target.
    Setup a microphone halfway between the blaster and target.
    Fire the blaster, recording on the microphone.
    Analyse the sound file using appropriate software (such as audacity) to find the time it took from the blaster firing to the dart hitting the target.
    v=s/t

    This method is very accurate and should produce results with very little uncertainty as there is minimal friction, weather conditions or human reaction time involved.
    We are looking into buying a proper chronographing setup for this purpose so that we can produce more consistent and VERY accurate power testing, irrespective of outdoor conditions.
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  boosted6 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:57 pm

    Ooh a chrono.

    Make sure you shop around. My friend has one, he got his for a great price, where some people charge the earth.
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    Mozart

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  Mozart on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:13 pm

    That's really cool, Ungodlyfreak. Pretty simple, so long as you have access to a good mic and editing software. Cool to see a 17 year old actually caring about their future as well, I don't see many of those around here.

    I'm starting to understand it all a bit, now that I've been reminded that the results are in a perfect world with no friction and perfect gravity.. This is a very cool subject, it's great to be able to know how powerful your blasters are, without using terms like 'goes through cardboard, so 100'+' lol.
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    clunk07
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  clunk07 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:16 pm

    Going through cardboard is still pretty cool though.

    The new one is going through packing boxes cardboard - that's good for 130 feet apparently

    Denting colourbond sheeting is good for 250 feet...

    haha
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  Mozart on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:27 pm

    What's denting plaster walls? Also, putting holes in.. well, I think it was filler, because it put a hole in the wall, bet there are two holes within an inch and no holes anywhere else.
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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  clunk07 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:50 pm

    My LS went through the gyprock wall upstairs (much to the wife's disgust) when it was hitting 130 feet. The walls are 31 years old though...
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    makeitgo

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  makeitgo on Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:01 pm

    Ungodlyfreak wrote:

    We are looking into buying a proper chronographing setup for this purpose so that we can produce more consistent and VERY accurate power testing, irrespective of outdoor conditions.

    There are actually quite a few posts on other forums with muzzle velocity data recorded by chronographs. And it would seem that the 'muzzle' velocity is the only thing people are interested in. However, what I would be very interested in is a double reading. The muzzle velocity AND the velocity just before it hit the ground. From those 2 results a better more accurate(empirical) calculation of the average velocity can be determined.

    Vavg = (v1+v2)/2

    I've posted this comment on all the chronograph topics I could find but have yet to receive any intelligible response.

    Plus, as an aspiring astrophysicist, I could have shown integral calculus and included co-efficients of friction and atmospheric pressure but that would definitely have been infinitely more confusing to the majority. I very consciously used high school physics to best explain in reasonably understandable terms so most would understand... I guess assumed too much.

    In terms of calculus it would look more like this: ybar = (integral^x2_x1 y dx) / (x2 - x1)

    However, I would be quick to point out that muzzle velocity isn't the real issue but 'Kinetic Energy' is. A blank dart will have the same muzzle velocity as a hot glue tipped bb weighted Stefan fired from the same blaster. But their kinetic energies would be quite different (of course I know their distances will be different as well for those of you who are reading this and are quick to judge without fully understanding). That's also why I would be interested in the second chrono reading. I'd like to know how much 'power' is lost from muzzle velocity to terminal or final velocity. Because airguns and springers can have the same range over all (100' for arguments sake) but their initial kinetic energies (muzzle velocities) are quite different.

    I posted this on another forum when some one brought up F = ma and argued according to this formula, a weighted and unweighted dart would hit with the same force. They were trying to prove that math didn't work in the real world.

    "The results shown by the chronograph tests are only the muzzle velocities. Muzzle velocities will always be higher than the final or terminal velocities. The results I've shown are the 'average' of those two velocities.

    And to answer your question about F = ma, you're right in saying that the F is constant and that (a) becomes a variable determined by the 2 different dart masses but getting hit with a blank vs a weighted dart at point blank range from the same blaster will not feel the same because their masses are different.


    It's not the Force of the plunger moving the dart that will hurt you, it's the Energy. Force is, something trying to move a mass. Energy is the work expelled by that mass.

    What you're looking for is kenetic energy, Ek = 1/2 m v^2

    For arguments sake we'll let the weighted dart be 1.0g and the unweighted dart be 0.2g. And we'll use 328ft/s which = 100m/s as the muzzle velocity.

    Ek weighted = 1/2 (0.001kg)(100m/s)^2
    Ek weighted = 1/2 (0.001kg)(100m^2/s^2)
    Ek weighted = 1/2 (0.10kg*m^2/s^2)
    Ek weighted = 0.05J

    Ek unweighted = 1/2 (0.0002kg)(100m/s)^2
    Ek unweighted = 1/2 (0.0002kg)(100m^2/s^2)
    Ek unweighted = 1/2 (0.02kg*m^2/s^2)
    Ek unweighted = 0.01J

    As you can see, the unweighted dart hits with much less kinetic energy than the weighted dart."

    I hope this helps clarify my understanding of this topic to you.


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    238232

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

    Post  238232 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:51 pm

    makeitgo wrote:There are actually quite a few posts on other forums with muzzle velocity data recorded by chronographs. And it would seem that the 'muzzle' velocity is the only thing people are interested in. However, what I would be very interested in is a double reading. The muzzle velocity AND the velocity just before it hit the ground. From those 2 results a better more accurate(empirical) calculation of the average velocity can be determined.

    Vavg = (v1+v2)/2

    I've posted this comment on all the chronograph topics I could find but have yet to receive any intelligible response.

    I definitely agree with you on the need for measuring velocity at multiple points, but I think the issue with measuring it just before it hits the ground is hitting the chrono, or missing it altogether at that range. More true with firearms (especially hitting the chrono!), but probably still an issue with Nerf.

    Perhaps measuring the velocity at, say, 0, 1, 2, 5, 10 &c metres would work better and also give us an indication of the deceleration?

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    Re: How powerful is your blaster?

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