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clunk07
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    Stampede Battery Options

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    Post  shacam Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:03 am

    Hi. Just bought a BT spring for my stampede.
    Just wondering what the best battery option is.
    As I have seen many different options.
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    Post  melbnerf619 Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:14 am

    4 x 14500 900MaH trustfire batteries are the winner (unprotected)

    -James
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    Post  shacam Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:46 am

    Thanks, was trying to decide between those and a 12v sla battery.
    Where would be the best place to get them.
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    Post  littlebro05 Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:35 pm

    You can purchase them through deal extreme. Look for UNPROTECTED as SGNERF has reported that the protected ones dont' work very well.

    12Vs SLA works too, however, from what I've seen, they are relatively heavy. The trustfires are more light weight =).
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    Post  Captain Crooks Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:42 pm

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    Post  spectre Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:50 pm

    littlebro05 wrote:You can purchase them through deal extreme. Look for UNPROTECTED as SGNERF has reported that the protected ones dont' work very well.

    Apparently the protection circuit effects the cell's maximum discharge rate, mind you without under/over volt protection you need to be EXTRA respectful of Lithium-Ion cells...

    littlebro05 wrote:12Vs SLA works too, however, from what I've seen, they are relatively heavy. The trustfires are more light weight =).

    That's due to lithium's higher energy density, however those LiPO packs suggested previously by CC are superior again to the unprotected Lithium-Ion cells with a discharge rate in excess of 10x.
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    Post  Vanq Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:34 pm

    How do you go about hooking up one of those batteries though? I'm in the same boat, looking to start modding my first Nerf in a long time, and first time on a powered blaster, so fairly new to it.

    I've already got some Truefires on order, but options are good!
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    Post  clunk07 Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:46 am

    Yep, there's the three options.

    12v SLA's are heavy.

    LiPo's can explode in the right/wrong environment.

    Unprotected Li-ion's can explode if over-charged.

    Performance is about the same for all 3 types though.

    Personally, I use Li-ion 14500's, and not the cheap Trust/Ultrafire's either - I just sell them from time to time, as most people won't pay for the quality brands. And, when I charge them, I'm normally not too far away, and monitor the charging with a DIMM, to prevent over-charging.

    Protected Li-ion's won't work at all.

    As for hooking up any of the three options, it's all the same. Scratch up the + and - terminals on the battery tray (I usually remove the spring from the - side) on the end that goes in to the blaster first. This gives the solder something to stick to. Then simply solder wires to the terminals.

    I normally use a 9v snap connector for my commission's, or solder the tails from the 4 x AA holder direct to the battery tray. Just depends on what I have in stock at the time.

    Cheers,


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    Post  littlebro05 Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:49 am

    Actually. The unprotected won't over charge as long as you use the trustfire specific charger. I've charge many trustfires over night and they will stop at 4.2V, even if unprotected.
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    Post  clunk07 Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:51 am

    littlebro05 wrote:Actually. The unprotected won't over charge as long as you use the trustfire specific charger. I've charge many trustfires over night and they will stop at 4.2V, even if unprotected.

    I wouldn't be taking that as any form of guarantee, and I'm certainly not going to recommend it. I've had batt's charge up to 4.4v on a number of occasions, and that was with the WF-139 charger.

    Really not worth taking the chance of burning down your/your parent's house... haha

    Cheers,


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    Post  littlebro05 Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:54 am

    Haha I guess you're right. Is that charger a different brand from trustfire though?
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    Post  clunk07 Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:02 am

    It's the Trustfire charger that has the over-charge protection, but I still don't trust it 100% - not even with the AW branded li-ion's.

    Cheers,


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    Post  Calico Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:26 am

    I use the dualsky LiPo pack. Just use a good balance charger which can be pricy so it's not the cheapest option.
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    Post  spectre Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:47 am

    clunk07 wrote:Yep, there's the three options.

    12v SLA's are heavy.

    LiPo's can explode in the right/wrong environment.

    Unprotected Li-ion's can explode if over-charged.

    Performance is about the same for all 3 types though.


    The LiPO packs allow for a better "discharge rate" than the unprotected Li-Ions could ever achieve, this is because of Li-Ion's higher internal resistance and thus R/C enthusiasts have opted for LiPO over Li-Ion to supply their hi-torque electric motors... hence performance is not equal.

    I'd also like to add that charging a Li-Ion (unprotected) cell that has been extremely discharged can also lead to serious problems .
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    Post  clunk07 Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:03 am

    Spectre, have you run a stampede with all 3 battery types, and compared ranges and rate of fire?!

    I have, and the difference between all 3 is negligible...

    We are a nerf forum, not a battery forum, so, obviously I was referring to blaster performance.

    This is why I hate threads like this...

    I've commissioned 15 stampede's, using 14500's, and had no complaints.

    Cheers,


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    Post  spectre Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:21 am

    clunk07 wrote:Spectre, have you run a stampede with all 3 battery types, and compared ranges and rate of fire?!

    I have, and the difference between all 3 is negligible...

    We are a nerf forum, not a battery forum, so, obviously I was referring to blaster performance.

    This is why I hate threads like this...


    Okay fair enough I was referring to the batteries ability to supply the necessary juice hence the preference for the higher capacity LiPO over the other 2 options mentioned.

    FWIW I've not built up a modded stampede as of yet but I have been a battery enthusiast thanks to various hobbies over the last 30 years and I can tell you that drawing 2A+ from a 0.9A Li-Ion cell isn't a great idea (as it would easily lead to an over discharged cell) and the primary reason the circuit on a protected 14500 doesn't work so well with a volt stampede mod, furthermore whilst the LiPO has handling issues too at least it can easily supply the higher amperage draw (as it has been designed to)...

    Perhaps a better overall compromise would be the use of 3~4 high capacity (higher discharge rated) protected Li-Ion cells like those supplied by AW (or similar)?


    • Over-charging/over-discharge protection
    • 2~3A+ capacity (depending on cell choice)
    • Only slightly heavier than the 14500 cells


    Protected 18650 Li-Ion battery comparison @ CPF
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    Post  chiiia Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:41 am

    On the topic about chargers and such, I have a TrustFire charger model TR-001, which is this one: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/trustfire-tr-001-multi-purpose-lithium-battery-charger-12594. Is it a charger that will explode my batteries?
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    Post  oznerfnerd Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:14 pm

    clunk07 wrote:Spectre, have you run a stampede with all 3 battery types, and compared ranges and rate of fire?!

    I have, and the difference between all 3 is negligible...

    We are a nerf forum, not a battery forum, so, obviously I was referring to blaster performance.

    This is why I hate threads like this...

    I've commissioned 15 stampede's, using 14500's, and had no complaints.

    Cheers,

    Absolutely, I've tried them all too with the same result.

    A battery doesn't "push" more current through a device, the device draws current up to it's maximum rating.

    The kind of C rating offered by a Lipo battery is just not required by a Stampedes motor.

    A 4s 14.8v lipo should be balance charged as well with an expensive(ish) charger, and there is much greater scope for error and fires than with the unprotected trustfires.

    The deal extreme batteries and charger are the way to go.
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    Post  clunk07 Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:41 pm

    spectre wrote:

    Okay fair enough I was referring to the batteries ability to supply the necessary juice hence the preference for the higher capacity LiPO over the other 2 options mentioned.


    Perhaps a better overall compromise would be the use of 3~4 high capacity (higher discharge rated) protected Li-Ion cells like those supplied by AW (or similar)?


    • Over-charging/over-discharge protection
    • 2~3A+ capacity (depending on cell choice)
    • Only slightly heavier than the 14500 cells


    Protected 18650 Li-Ion battery comparison @ CPF

    haha - another flashlight nut!! lol

    I'm only just getting in to cree LED's etc, using li-ion batt's. My Uncle is about your age, and he's been a battery-head for about as long also. Been learning a bit from him over the last 12 months, and accumulating a nice collection of torches.

    I personally use the AW batt's in all my torches (18650's) and use the AW 14500's in my Stampede/Barricade's. Most guys won't pay the extra money for them, though I have sold a few sets of AW's to member's for Stampede's. I've tried the AW protected 14500's, without success. I have thought of using the 18650's, and using some conduit in the battery tray as a make-shift holder, but the price of the batt's is a bit of a deterrent.

    I will admit, my battery/electrical knowledge is fairly meagre. I do know, however, that the unprotected 14500's are the best option for me. I am considering getting in to RC, so the LiPo option may become more feasible if I do. At the end of the day, people will use whatever the have/cheapest option. I've borrowed some LiPo's from a mate, and they work fine, but the Li-ion's are easier for me, due to having the charger's already for torches etc. I've also bought some SLA's for air compressor mod's in the future, and the biggest issue I have with them is price and weight.

    Cheers,


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    Post  littlebro05 Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:05 am

    Well if you guys are going to argue. It's all about preference. I like my trustfires too since they're light weight and more easier to install. Very cheap, and just as effective.
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    Post  clunk07 Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:21 am

    littlebro05 wrote:Well if you guys are going to argue. It's all about preference. I like my trustfires too since they're light weight and more easier to install. Very cheap, and just as effective.

    haha - not exactly arguing, just expressing opinion's/experience. Some pretty helpful advice thus far.

    But, yeh, it all comes down to preference/cost.

    Cheers,


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    Post  Servulus Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:41 am

    I personally like the weight of the SLA battery, the placement of that weight works well for me. As for lipos ive had a few of these go pop and i dont want one so close to my skin when they do go pop.
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    Post  oznerfnerd Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:33 am

    littlebro05 wrote:Well if you guys are going to argue. It's all about preference. I like my trustfires too since they're light weight and more easier to install. Very cheap, and just as effective.

    Where was the argument??
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    Post  spectre Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:53 pm

    littlebro05 wrote:Well if you guys are going to argue. It's all about preference. I like my trustfires too since they're light weight and more easier to install. Very cheap, and just as effective.

    No arguing merely "spirited" debating...


    oznerfnerd wrote:The kind of C rating offered by a Lipo battery is just not required by a Stampedes motor.

    Agreed, however if the unprotected trustfire 14500's have an approximated 2C rating (protected blue TF 14500 = 1.5C ) and their capacity is accurate (which I hear is exaggerated) then 900mAh should safely yield up to 1.8A current draw, a revised capacity of 750mAh would then safely yield up to 1.5A.

    According to the findings of MavericK96 over at Nerf Haven (thread HERE ), a stock Stampede draws during the firing cycle between 1~1.6A @ 6v.

    Now lets consider that SgNerf stated HERE that his modified Stampede pulled 2.2~2.6A @ 16.8v, so it's easy to reach the conclusion that whilst the unprotected 14500's can be used in a volt modded Stampede project they are being seriously run "out-of-spec" hence my aversion to their usage...


    clunk07 wrote:haha - another flashlight nut!! lol

    I'm only just getting in to cree LED's etc, using li-ion batt's. My Uncle is about your age, and he's been a battery-head for about as long also. Been learning a bit from him over the last 12 months, and accumulating a nice collection of torches.


    Yes the XM-L is an amazing LED (power/watt ratio), have you seen AW's new line of LiNiCoO2 NNP cells yet?

    Surefire FTW!

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    Post  oznerfnerd Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:11 pm

    Ok,

    I don't see where you get the 2C rating, and the 1.8A max draw.

    Doesn't mean you're wrong, by the way.

    The fact that the unprotected 14500's delivered the current needed, are so widely used and no one has had any problems is enough for me.

    The Lipo WILL deliver max current draw continuously, and for longer than the Li-ions for sure.

    But the difference in blaster performance is negligable, and SGNerf has posted that he gets 700 shots out of one set of 4x14500's between charges.

    I actually have about a dozen lipos floating around up to 5s (18.5v) complete with a very fancy balance charger, but I still use the Li-ions because it's easier and safer.

    But it's each to his own of course, and I'm not disputing your points.

    But It's not like the 14500's are new on the nerf modding scene, and I'd much rather see kids under 16 using them than Lipos.

    Unfortunately the battery debate has been done to death as bad as the lube debate...

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    Post  spectre Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:44 am

    oznerfnerd wrote:Ok,

    I don't see where you get the 2C rating, and the 1.8A max draw.

    Unfortunately some manufacturers don't seem to think consumers require discharge specifications, considering a protected 14500 is rated at 1.5C and a quality (unprotected) Tenergy 14500 is purportedly capable of 2.5C then it seems 2C is a reasonable guestimation that has been adopted for these cells as noted by 238232 in post no. 34 of Servulus's spring sale thread.

    1.8A = 2 C
    1.8A = 2 x 900mA

    Maximum safe (specified) discharge rate not maximum cell draw




    oznerfnerd wrote:The fact that the unprotected 14500's delivered the current needed, are so widely used and no one has had any problems is enough for me.

    The Lipo WILL deliver max current draw continuously, and for longer than the Li-ions for sure.

    But the difference in blaster performance is negligable, and SGNerf has posted that he gets 700 shots out of one set of 4x14500's between charges.

    I should look into that as I'd be curious as to what resting voltage the cells were in after 700 shots...


    oznerfnerd wrote:I actually have about a dozen lipos floating around up to 5s (18.5v) complete with a very fancy balance charger, but I still use the Li-ions because it's easier and safer.

    But it's each to his own of course, and I'm not disputing your points.

    But It's not like the 14500's are new on the nerf modding scene, and I'd much rather see kids under 16 using them than Lipos.

    Exactly right, safety should be a primary concern but I can't help but loathe unprotected Li-Ions after having used hi-yield protected Li-Ions 18650's etc. for so long without incident... bottom line the protection circuit helps eliminate the "human factor" out of the safety equation as sadly not all Li-Ion users would treat the cells with the respect they require...



    oznerfnerd wrote:Unfortunately the battery debate has been done to death as bad as the lube debate...

    Agreed... fix-a-tap is great as the DIY packs are also useful for spare O rings (oh and for actually having the parts on hand to fix a tap).

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