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    Range effects on different lengths of foam.

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    inf0rm3r
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    Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  inf0rm3r on Tue May 10, 2011 7:49 am

    For those who think 1.5" travels further than streamline length. I've done range tests below is the data.

    5 darts were fired with blue foam and silicone tips. All measurements are in Meters! x 3 3.28 to get feet.

    1.25" Results

    Longshot (Modded, AR, Tripleshot Spring, Airhole Sealed) Min 15/Max 17.5
    Raider (Modded AR, Strawmod) Min 11/Max 13.5
    Stormfire (Modded AR, Brass Barrel, C-836 Spring, No oring/seal mods) Min 16/Max 20

    1.5" Results

    Longshot (Modded, AR, Tripleshot Spring, Airhole Sealed) Min 16.5/Max 17.8
    Raider (Modded AR, Strawmod) Min 12.2/Max 14
    Stormfire (Modded AR, Brass Barrel, C-836 Spring, No oring/seal mods) Min 18.5/Max 22.5

    6.4CM Results

    Longshot (Modded, AR, Tripleshot Spring, Airhole Sealed) Min 23.5/Max 25
    Raider (Modded AR, Strawmod) Min 12.5/Max 15.5
    Stormfire (Modded AR, Brass Barrel, C-836 Spring, No oring/seal mods) Min 20.5/Max 23

    I've tested a 7CM piece of foam out of the storm fire as you can't load it into clip guns. The range at that length does have a negative effect on range.

    A bit of food for thought.

    Yes this is a subtle rage.
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    Kinetic Waffle

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Kinetic Waffle on Tue May 10, 2011 7:59 am

    You know you've done a good rage when afterwards, you clarify that what you just said was fueled by pure frustration.
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    Psykka
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Psykka on Tue May 10, 2011 8:03 am

    It does depend on your barrel material as well. My beserker fires 1.2inch darts WAY better than streamline length ones. So I've got a separate set for the turret.


    In general streamline length does seem to work better for clip loaders that haven't been breach modded though.


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    Chaos-Blades

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Chaos-Blades on Tue May 10, 2011 8:06 am

    It's not so much the range that bothers me, it's the accuracy (as I've said in your trade thread) Does the length make any difference in accuracy?
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Psykka on Tue May 10, 2011 8:10 am

    I replied in the thread about that one.

    Do we really need this in two places? It's getting muddled already.


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    inf0rm3r
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  inf0rm3r on Tue May 10, 2011 8:50 am

    I was ment to make a new thread but I was replying to clunk as well hence the confusion.

    @ Tony

    The accuracy overall is increased with the tips, the accuracy isn't affected overall by the length of the foam. I can hit a stand still target, my poor friend from 25M away just about everytime in the torso area with any length dart.

    Out of testing against a can 13M away, best I could test in my house. I can hit it 9/10 times with any lengths.

    My argument was with people claiming 1.5 and 1.25" will out range. But to answer the accuracy, maybe mathematically and physics wise perhaps but practically no, you cannot see a difference with your own eyes, I certainly didn't didn't hit more or less with either.

    @ Kinetic. Yes you do.
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    Roger Explosion
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Roger Explosion on Tue May 10, 2011 9:01 am

    Using short darts in clip breeched guns, of course your going to get crappier ranges. Though the stormfire does prove to be interesting.

    Try this again in some +30M air guns. I would like to see how much the difference is.


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    Silent Scope

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Silent Scope on Tue May 10, 2011 12:27 pm

    The results for both the Raider and the LS can't be deemed conclusive to the argument as of yet since the blasters have only been modded to retain the original breech design in which the dart is pushed inside the bolt which also acts as the barrel itself. It would only make sense that full streamline-length darts will perform better as the dart is positioned closer to the point in which the airflow meets the dart with less deadspace as opposed to the shorter length darts (as noted by Roger Explosion already).

    I will hopefully conduct my own results with my modded TS to help negate this deadspace point and help clarify on the whole dart length issue.

    However, I'm in favour of standardising homemade darts to streamline length for reasons of compatibility with all modded blasters (think mags and drums) as opposed to any range and accuracy performance issues.


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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  clunk07 on Tue May 10, 2011 1:07 pm

    Hey guys,

    I've performed a quick test. With Titan and 60cm barrel, I drop around 40 feet flat range with 40mm length darts, as opposed to pre-cut length blue foam.

    I've noticed alot more fish-tailing too, and a moderate decrease in accuracy.

    I realise this isn't overly useful info, as my blaster would be banned nearly everywhere. Just wanted to contribute my findings at the higher-end of the ranging.

    Cheers,
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    random guy

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  random guy on Tue May 10, 2011 3:01 pm

    Does the longshot have a TS spring addition or replacement?
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    littlebro05
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  littlebro05 on Tue May 10, 2011 3:08 pm

    The clip breech blasters are faltered. You have to push it all the way down to actually get a proper 'barrel'. If it was only fed half way, you won't get the right ranges.
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    Rictus

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Rictus on Wed May 11, 2011 7:34 am

    Evidence seems to suggest that in many springers, such as most clip fed guns, streamline length works better than short darts. I believe this is due to the effects of air resistance holding the dart aloft for longer. The longer length changes the balancing and drag of the dart significantly, holding it in a forward facing position for longer. This is demonstrated by the "float" effect we see so often with streamlines. A secondary factor is the quality of the air seal; in some springers a longer dart will gain a better seal, while in others it will provide too much resistance. I know that with my personal guns, long darts often perform poorly, due to too much resistance in the barrel. In terms of higher powered pump guns, long darts often perform more accurately due to various drag and air resistance effects (reducing fishtailing), but distance/power is based on the quality of the air seal. Accuracy wise, normal streamlines suck because of the uneven heads. I'd imagine Informer's heads are pretty even, so accuracy should be pretty good. End spasm.

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Winterstrike on Wed May 11, 2011 1:44 pm

    I'm ordering 2000m of pink foam and an assload of heavy siltips, as I find they work very well with modded longshots(with my springs in them) and high-powered air guns. Dart creation is incredibly easy and the whole package just makes life so much easier. Even if the ranges were worse(which they're not anyway, the ranges are far superior to hot glue with 00's or CDT's) I'll be using them from now on as making darts takes about 3 seconds per dart now, as opposed to 15ish as well as the mess.

    TLDR: I'm a convert. These darts are the way to go.
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  jacko1120 on Wed May 11, 2011 2:00 pm

    Winterstrike wrote:I'm ordering 2000m of pink foam and an assload of heavy siltips, as I find they work very well with modded longshots(with my springs in them) and high-powered air guns. Dart creation is incredibly easy and the whole package just makes life so much easier. Even if the ranges were worse(which they're not anyway, the ranges are far superior to hot glue with 00's or CDT's) I'll be using them from now on as making darts takes about 3 seconds per dart now, as opposed to 15ish as well as the mess.

    TLDR: I'm a convert. These darts are the way to go.

    Agreed.
    I could make 5 Sil tip darts in the time it would take me to make 1 snap cap or CDTS.
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    mister_elliott

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  mister_elliott on Wed May 11, 2011 2:29 pm

    Being a nerd I like to learn about weapons.

    This whole dart length thing reminds me of kinetic energy penetrators as fired by anti-tank cannons. They are used for penetrating armour that would withstand similarly weighted HEAT rounds. You could conceptualise a kinetic round as an arrow made from a super dense material, and the reason they work so well is because they focus so much force on such a small cross section (the point of the 'arrow'). Tests have demonstrated that, given a certain density and caliber, the longer a kinetic round is, the more effective it is at penetrating steel.

    There are two major forces at play in the terminal balistics of kinetic weapons, the resistance of the steel, and the energy of the penetrator. If you scale the forces down massively you could find an analogy with darts fired from air guns. Given a certain caliber, a longer (and therefore heavier) dart concentrates more energy into the same area, 'penetrating' air resistance more easily.

    So there's my rant out of the way (it's pretty generalistic and novice, so don't hurt me if you actually know physics or whatever). This info doesn't really means anything in a nerf war, but i thought other users might be interested to hear that science similar to what's in this thread has been applied to much, much larger guns. You can learn more about kinetic energy penetrators from a quick google, or by playing F.E.A.R.

    TL;DR, more length=more weight, therefore
    more weight+same cross section=lessened air/steel resistance.
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  clunk07 on Wed May 11, 2011 2:39 pm

    mister_elliott wrote:Being a nerd I like to learn about weapons.

    This whole dart length thing reminds me of kinetic energy penetrators as fired by anti-tank cannons. They are used for penetrating armour that would withstand similarly weighted HEAT rounds. You could conceptualise a kinetic round as an arrow made from a super dense material, and the reason they work so well is because they focus so much force on such a small cross section (the point of the 'arrow'). Tests have demonstrated that, given a certain density and caliber, the longer a kinetic round is, the more effective it is at penetrating steel.

    There are two major forces at play in the terminal balistics of kinetic weapons, the resistance of the steel, and the energy of the penetrator. If you scale the forces down massively you could find an analogy with darts fired from air guns. Given a certain caliber, a longer (and therefore heavier) dart concentrates more energy into the same area, 'penetrating' air resistance more easily.

    So there's my rant out of the way (it's pretty generalistic and novice, so don't hurt me if you actually know physics or whatever). This info doesn't really means anything in a nerf war, but i thought other users might be interested to hear that science similar to what's in this thread has been applied to much, much larger guns. You can learn more about kinetic energy penetrators from a quick google, or by playing F.E.A.R.

    TL;DR, more length=more weight, therefore
    more weight+same cross section=lessened air/steel resistance.

    Nice off-topic rant - similar to myself most days

    The extra weight of 24mm of foam would be negligible, if nothing.
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    Chaos-Blades

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Chaos-Blades on Thu May 12, 2011 3:17 am

    Winterstrike wrote:I'm ordering 2000m of pink foam and an assload of heavy siltips, as I find they work very well with modded longshots(with my springs in them) and high-powered air guns. Dart creation is incredibly easy and the whole package just makes life so much easier. Even if the ranges were worse(which they're not anyway, the ranges are far superior to hot glue with 00's or CDT's) I'll be using them from now on as making darts takes about 3 seconds per dart now, as opposed to 15ish as well as the mess.

    TLDR: I'm a convert. These darts are the way to go.
    Well that's pretty much the evidence I wanted to ahead with (mostly)converting too. I'll still offer a white-FBR-stefan dart hire bucket at most wars from now on (the bucket's a little empty at the moment)
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Psykka on Thu May 12, 2011 5:57 pm

    mister_elliott wrote: A big chunk of text

    It's actually a different sort of physics that govern the tho kinds of projectiles. The cross sectional area thing is more for striking force, which is why those needle type tank shels work so well.


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    clunk07
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  clunk07 on Sun May 15, 2011 5:33 pm

    Hey guys,

    Just a quick revelation that I had today, that may/may not be conclusive.

    Most people south of the NSW border - Vic and Tas - seem to be the people having issues with longer lengths of foam...

    Do you think this could have something to do with the arctic winds/gravitational pull from the South Pole or similar?
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    Echoes

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Echoes on Sun May 15, 2011 5:54 pm

    *Awaits a burn on the Vics and SA's from a Queenslander*
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  clunk07 on Sun May 15, 2011 5:59 pm

    lol Echoes - just pointing out, I'm not having a crack at any Mexican's...

    Just thought that there may be an actual geographical/climate explanation behind their preferred/proven length of foam.

    I'm fairly curious about the whole thing.
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Echoes on Sun May 15, 2011 6:03 pm

    clunk07 wrote:Hey guys,

    Just a quick revelation that I had today, that may/may not be conclusive.

    Most people south of the NSW border - Vic and Tas - seem to be the people having issues with longer lengths of foam...

    Do you think this could have something to do with the arctic winds/gravitational pull from the South Pole or similar?

    Well it is colder down there and that might change the overall dimensions of the darts. How that affects the performance of streamline length darts I have no idea.
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  mull on Sun May 15, 2011 8:18 pm

    clunk07 wrote:Hey guys,

    Just a quick revelation that I had today, that may/may not be conclusive.

    Most people south of the NSW border - Vic and Tas - seem to be the people having issues with longer lengths of foam...

    Do you think this could have something to do with the arctic winds/gravitational pull from the South Pole or similar?
    Your theory may have some weight there.
    Speaking about Melbourne, our winds are mostly westerly due to our latitude, and northerly during these colder months, as the warmer inland air moves into the colder regions (plenty of cold air above the ocean surface down south).

    Now, there's a good chance that I'm not going to do anything much during the morning, so that means that messing around with the guns will occur some time closer to noon and after.
    By this time, the suns' going to be north-ish and moving to the west.
    If I'm going to do my firing tests, I'm not going to face the glare of the sun either.
    That's means I'm more likely to shoot towards the east and south, with a high probability of a tailwind (wind coming from somewhere in the west and north).

    Whether headwinds and tailwind do anything with the range, I do not know.
    Can someone experiment on this?

    We didn't have much of a summer this year, so I'm not sure if anyone can verify the projectiles' behaviour on a warm and hot day.
    I don't think is a good idea to extrapolate statistical data from observations up north for distances travelled in warmer ambient temperatures, as the geographical difference may introduce more uncontrollable variables.

    Examples:
    - Wind direction and vertical drafts
    - Humidity
    - Gravity (we're closer to the centre of the earth than you guys closer to the equator)
    - Atmospheric pressure

    Perhaps, our sample size is too small to determine if something strange is going on.
    Heck, we apparently have rain belts across the suburbs in this city, where one area may be totally pissing and other places dry; due to the plains, hills and bays nearby certain areas.
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    Kinetic Waffle

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Kinetic Waffle on Sun May 15, 2011 9:13 pm

    mull wrote:
    clunk07 wrote:Hey guys,

    Just a quick revelation that I had today, that may/may not be conclusive.

    Most people south of the NSW border - Vic and Tas - seem to be the people having issues with longer lengths of foam...

    Do you think this could have something to do with the arctic winds/gravitational pull from the South Pole or similar?
    Your theory may have some weight there.
    Speaking about Melbourne, our winds are mostly westerly due to our latitude, and northerly during these colder months, as the warmer inland air moves into the colder regions (plenty of cold air above the ocean surface down south).

    Now, there's a good chance that I'm not going to do anything much during the morning, so that means that messing around with the guns will occur some time closer to noon and after.
    By this time, the suns' going to be north-ish and moving to the west.
    If I'm going to do my firing tests, I'm not going to face the glare of the sun either.
    That's means I'm more likely to shoot towards the east and south, with a high probability of a tailwind (wind coming from somewhere in the west and north).

    Whether headwinds and tailwind do anything with the range, I do not know.
    Can someone experiment on this?

    We didn't have much of a summer this year, so I'm not sure if anyone can verify the projectiles' behaviour on a warm and hot day.
    I don't think is a good idea to extrapolate statistical data from observations up north for distances travelled in warmer ambient temperatures, as the geographical difference may introduce more uncontrollable variables.

    Examples:
    - Wind direction and vertical drafts
    - Humidity
    - Gravity (we're closer to the centre of the earth than you guys closer to the equator)
    - Atmospheric pressure

    Perhaps, our sample size is too small to determine if something strange is going on.
    Heck, we apparently have rain belts across the suburbs in this city, where one area may be totally pissing and other places dry; due to the plains, hills and bays nearby certain areas.

    God damn melbourne weather. I mean, seriously. Come on...

    Humidity and pressure are probably your key factors. While gravity may affect things, the highest likelihood is that our darts simply curve a little, and don't fly as straight in our conditions. Foam expands and contracts, being a massively porous material, so this is probably made worse the longer the dart is.

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    melbnerf619

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  melbnerf619 on Mon May 16, 2011 9:16 am

    mull wrote:
    clunk07 wrote:Hey guys,

    Just a quick revelation that I had today, that may/may not be conclusive.

    Most people south of the NSW border - Vic and Tas - seem to be the people having issues with longer lengths of foam...

    Do you think this could have something to do with the arctic winds/gravitational pull from the South Pole or similar?
    Your theory may have some weight there.
    Speaking about Melbourne, our winds are mostly westerly due to our latitude, and northerly during these colder months, as the warmer inland air moves into the colder regions (plenty of cold air above the ocean surface down south).

    Now, there's a good chance that I'm not going to do anything much during the morning, so that means that messing around with the guns will occur some time closer to noon and after.
    By this time, the suns' going to be north-ish and moving to the west.
    If I'm going to do my firing tests, I'm not going to face the glare of the sun either.
    That's means I'm more likely to shoot towards the east and south, with a high probability of a tailwind (wind coming from somewhere in the west and north).

    Whether headwinds and tailwind do anything with the range, I do not know.
    Can someone experiment on this?

    We didn't have much of a summer this year, so I'm not sure if anyone can verify the projectiles' behaviour on a warm and hot day.
    I don't think is a good idea to extrapolate statistical data from observations up north for distances travelled in warmer ambient temperatures, as the geographical difference may introduce more uncontrollable variables.

    Examples:
    - Wind direction and vertical drafts
    - Humidity
    - Gravity (we're closer to the centre of the earth than you guys closer to the equator)
    - Atmospheric pressure

    Perhaps, our sample size is too small to determine if something strange is going on.
    Heck, we apparently have rain belts across the suburbs in this city, where one area may be totally pissing and other places dry; due to the plains, hills and bays nearby certain areas.

    solution: Do a North, South, East and West Range test for every dart and observe and change in range, tailing and some other aspects. This may sound stupid but may work.

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Guest on Mon May 16, 2011 9:50 am

    Hey guys what would be the best foam (darts) for modded or non-modded weapons.?
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    Unknown

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Unknown on Mon May 16, 2011 9:53 am

    Really depends on the power of the blaster.

    Stock -> lite snap cap or lite sili tip

    Medium -> normal snap caps or lite sili tip

    high power -> Heavy sili tip or heavy snap cap

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Guest on Mon May 16, 2011 9:57 am

    Thanks for that, it will help me alot.
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    melbnerf619

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  melbnerf619 on Mon May 16, 2011 10:27 am

    Unknown wrote:Really depends on the power of the blaster.

    Stock -> lite snap cap or lite sili tip

    Medium -> normal snap caps or lite sili tip

    high power -> Heavy sili tip or heavy snap cap

    Haha. I feel so accoplished being in Australia because if you say a stephan in America, It's either a slug dart or hot glue dome.
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Xoenz on Mon May 16, 2011 10:33 am

    Unknown wrote:Really depends on the power of the blaster.

    Stock -> lite snap cap or lite sili tip

    Medium -> normal snap caps or lite sili tip

    high power -> Heavy sili tip or heavy snap cap

    I thought that there were only small andlarge snapcaps, not 'normal' ones

    Anyway to be more specific, anything that shoots over 80-90ft, go for heavy silicon tips. Anything under, go for lite silicon tips/snap caps.
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Psykka on Mon May 16, 2011 10:35 am

    melbnerf619 wrote:

    Haha. I feel so accoplished being in Australia because if you say a stephan in America, It's either a slug dart or hot glue dome.

    I know right? It seems odd the americans haven't organised something like new tips considering how awful some peoples hotglue skils are.


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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Unknown on Mon May 16, 2011 10:46 am

    Xoenz wrote:
    Unknown wrote:Really depends on the power of the blaster.

    Stock -> lite snap cap or lite sili tip

    Medium -> normal snap caps or lite sili tip

    high power -> Heavy sili tip or heavy snap cap

    I thought that there were only small andlarge snapcaps, not 'normal' ones

    Anyway to be more specific, anything that shoots over 80-90ft, go for heavy silicon tips. Anything under, go for lite silicon tips/snap caps.

    Littlebro05 sells heavy and lite snap caps. You choose if you want heavy washers or lite washers, both options are small caps just different washers.
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    clunk07
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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  clunk07 on Mon May 16, 2011 10:48 am

    Xoenz wrote:
    Unknown wrote:Really depends on the power of the blaster.

    Stock -> lite snap cap or lite sili tip

    Medium -> normal snap caps or lite sili tip

    high power -> Heavy sili tip or heavy snap cap

    I thought that there were only small andlarge snapcaps, not 'normal' ones

    Anyway to be more specific, anything that shoots over 80-90ft, go for heavy silicon tips. Anything under, go for lite silicon tips/snap caps.

    The "normal" may be referring to the weight, and not the diameter? Maybe this:

    Lite - 1 washer
    Normal - 2 washers
    Heavy - 3 washers, or sinker etc


    That's just how I refer to my darts anyway.

    Also, as is usual, it's best to trial the darts yourself. I think the use of inf0rm3r's sample pack would be a great way of doing this at a cost-effective price.

    In my testing, the heavy sili-tips perform very poorly in my LS (150+ feet), and that's with varied tail lengths. Where as in my Stampede (75 feet), they perform very well, with standard length or shorter tails. Yet, aren't very useful in my Titan (400+ feet), due to not being heavy enough.

    So, really, there's no definite range guide as to what tips to use for which blaster. Just guidelines, as Xoenz and Inf0rm3r have both listed. Half the fun of modding blaster's is working out how heavy to make a dart!!


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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  inf0rm3r on Mon May 16, 2011 10:50 am

    Psykka wrote:
    melbnerf619 wrote:

    Haha. I feel so accoplished being in Australia because if you say a stephan in America, It's either a slug dart or hot glue dome.

    I know right? It seems odd the americans haven't organised something like new tips considering how awful some peoples hotglue skils are.

    Most of them are unfortunately so tight that they won't spend the extra couple of cents. Sad but true.

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

    Post  Guest on Mon May 16, 2011 10:53 am

    Its wierd but true Informer,its so cheap over in america too.

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    Re: Range effects on different lengths of foam.

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